POLL: Was Baker Right to Deny a Wedding Cake to a Lesbian Couple?
A Des Moines baker told a same-sex couple that she would not make their wedding cake because of her Christian convictions about gay marriage. Does she have that right?
Victoria Childress wasn't looking for controversy when she told a lesbian couple and potential customers that she wasn't going to bake their wedding cake.
She said she was just trying to be follow the tenets of her Christian faith: that homosexuality is a sin and marriage should be between a man and a woman.
The controversy over the Des Moines baker's decision not to serve same-sex couple, Trina Vodraska and Janelle Sievers, has been attracting a lot of attention and opinion on KCCI.com.
Vote whether you approve or disapprove of the baker's actions and add your two cents in our comment section.
The couple says they're not sure if they will file a discrimination complaint. Other metro area bakers told the television station they disapproved of Childress' decision.
According to Beth Townsend, director of the Iowa Civil Rights Commission, Iowa's law says than any business offering goods or services to the general public cannot turn customers away based on sexual orientation or gender identity.
John Konior, staff liaison to Urbandale's Civil Rights Commission, said the city has the same law as the state, but has not received any complaints about discrimination on sexual orientation.
People who feel they have been discriminated against may file complaints in their cities if the city has a civil rights law and commission. There are 24 Iowa cities with such boards, including Patch towns Ames, Cedar Falls, Iowa City, Urbandale, and West Des Moines.
View other Patch Polls on our topics page.
Nicholas
9:01 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
I have heard a lot of people equate this businesswoman's decision not to serve this couple to a Kosher deli's right to decline to serve pork products, and I find that analogy very disturbing. Of course people have a right to offer services according to their religious beliefs, but there is a huge moral, ethical, and legal difference between declining to serve pork and declining to serve a class of people. If the baker had said she could not provide a cake topper with two brides, that would be within her rights. She is not obligated to offer products that she feels do not accord with her beliefs. On the other hand, she cannot categorically refuse to serve this couple because of who they are, and she has no right to determine how her baked goods will be used once they are purchased. A satanist has a God-given right to purchase one of her cakes and have sex with it to mock marriage if he chooses; he paid for the cake, he owns it, and his rights only end where the rights of others begin. But this couple wanted to do no such thing; they wanted to offer a cake to their friends and family to publicly celebrate their commitment to each other; I don't see how this offends the sanctity of the institution, or why this baker has a god-given right to interfere.
Jon Trouten
9:20 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
My guess is that she serves more than Christian clients, so her principles only come out when dealing with gay and lesbian customers (or rather non-customers).
That said, I really don't have a problem with her not working for this couple. I could care less about Childress' ability to turn away business. I'm more concerned about the blushing brides in this storyline. Do they really want to hire a cake-maker who morally opposes their wedding and their new family? They're better off knowing now and not investing any time or money into this failed business relationship. There are tons of bakers who would love to work with gay and lesbian families They should support those businesses, IMHO.
Saundra Ragona
2:17 pm on Tuesday, February 14, 2012
I must agree with Jon, If she chooses to loose business, that should be her choice. The young couple can go to any number of bakeries that would be hap
py to serve them. It's her loss.
Jeff Glenn
10:09 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
Who would Jesus NOT feed? No one!
Deb
10:21 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
Nice push-poll. The question is fine, the answers should have been a simple "yes" or "no." Gotta give it to those college graduates who get their degrees in environmental socialism, they sure know how to write poll questions to get the "truth" out of people!
I've been discriminated against, plenty of times. So should I run to an attorney or the newspaper every time it happens? Good grief. Bunch of cry babies.
OldDaveNJ
10:28 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
Just curious -- have you been discriminated against in clear violation of the law?? E.g. has a store owner refused to sell goods to you, or a company refused to hire you, specifically and admittedly because you are a woman??
Charles Davis
10:56 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
OldDave, clear viloation of the law? Really? It is illegal to denie housing, jobs (sometimes) etc because of a persons sexual orientation, I have yet to read any place where it is illegal to refuse to bake a cake because of sexual orientation. Maybe you could post a link to that law?
OldDaveNJ
11:04 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
Here's the link to the Iowa Civil Rights Act:
http://www.legis.iowa.gov/DOCS/ACO/IC/LINC/Chapter.216.html
The relevant section on "Unfair practices -- accommodations and services" is 216.7.1.a. The phrase "public accommodations" is defined in section 216.2.13.a, the first part covering private businesses that sell goods "for a fee or charge" to the general public, and the second part covering charities that provide goods "gratuitously" and that receive government funding.
OldDaveNJ
11:10 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
@Charles Davis -- and if you want more, I could probably find quite a few. I know NY and NJ have similar laws, I'm pretty sure CA does as well, and I assume that most states in the northeast do. Some municipalities in states that don't have such anti-discrimination laws prohibiting private businesses from refusing service based on sexual orientation have their own municipal ordinances that do ... Dallas, TX, for example.
Dale Richner
12:34 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
So discrimination is not that big a deal, and people should just turn the other way and ignore it. I see. Wait a minute, is this Iran or America we're sitting in?
If people don't fight for basic American principles, what should they fight for?
Deb
3:34 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
Basic American principles? Who gets to define those? It is a "basic American right" for someone to have to bake me a cake? Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.....and everyone will choke. If I went to an establishment and they refused to bake me a cake because I was straight, guess what? I'd go somewhere else. But then again, no one would do that, would they........
OldDaveNJ
8:15 am on Thursday, November 24, 2011
Deb -- Is it a "basic American right" for someone to have to cook you an omelet?? If you're unsure, I'm sure I could dig up information on a number of court cases involving African Americans who were snubbed by Denny's Restaurants. As for who gets to decide -- in this case it was the people's representatives in the Iowa State General Assembly who decided that it is the right of people to be able to walk into places like shops and restaurants and expect service regardless of their race, gender, religion, country of origin, or sexual orientation.
Charles Davis
10:00 am on Saturday, November 26, 2011
Old Dave, thank you for the link. After looking at the provisions, including "definitions" it appears that what this business did may have been illegal. Having said that, and having stated that I would have baked the cake for this couple, I still have to also repeat what I wrote below:
"Lets say this cake baker was a busines owned by black people. Now lets say that a KKK group wanted the business to cater or bake cakes for a KKK ralley in town. If the black business person refused to do so, would we be having this discussion?
Disclaimer: For goodness sakes I am not comparing gays to KKK members. I am only making a point that where do we find it acceptable for a private person to say NO I do not want to serve you."
Charles Davis
10:51 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
We all discriminate at times in our lives. Discrimination can mean the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
I am torn on this one. Would I refuse to make a cake for this couple? No. Should I tell this woman she does not have a right to make that choice for herself? No.
What is so odd about this is that I suspect many of the same people who insist a woman has a right to CHOOSE to abort a baby in her womb, are now saying this woman does not have the right to CHOOSE not to bake a cake for a gay couple, when the lifestyle is abhorrent to her.
Kill and unborn baby? Bake a cake? Hmm.
Should a landlord refuse to rent? No. Should an employer refuse to hire? No. But this just feels different. For goodness sakes, go buy a cake from an open minded person who embraces your love for each other!
John Bartlett
12:30 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
The woman who chooses to abort her fetus, is making a private decision. The woman who holds out a business for the general public and then reserves the right to choose WHO is acceptable and who is not, is in violation of anti-discrimination laws. If you don't want to serve ALL of the public, then don't be in business. There is a BIG difference between these two cases.
Dale Richner
12:43 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
How is it any different from having a sign in your window that says, "We don't serve Jews"? Would that be ok with you too?
How about, "No Christians allowed"?
Or maybe, "I only sell to white people"?
I fail to see any difference at all. Are you fine with business operating with those edicts? If not, why is it different for gays? Maybe because you have a little anti-gay in you too? Well I hate to break it to you but under the law gay people are 100% equal citizens to their heterosexual counterparts.
Paul Davis
2:10 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
So if I open a lunch counter in Alabama, you think it's perfectly acceptable for me to refuse to serve African Americans a sandwich?
The truth is that the GOVERNMENT and THE PEOPLE set up our system of commerce and they print the money that make it all possible. Of course the government has a right to make certain rules when a business opens up and chooses to participate in the commerce system by offering services in exchange for money. Of course the government has a right to say to businesses that they can't refuse to service certain groups of citizens. If you don't like the rules that apply to all businesses then feel free to go back to bartering your goods and services without using the money and government services that support OUR commerce system.
Charles Davis
10:59 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
BTW - Jeff Mullen, a pastor from Point of Grace Ministries (a guy I think is running for state office) apparently fired some Point of Grace day care employees because they were living with someone of the opposit sex without being married. Do you see a difference between that and refusing to bake a cake?
http://waukee.patch.com/articles/born-again-christians-only-daycare-parents-staff-angry-over-centers-evangelical-changes
OldDaveNJ
11:34 am on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
From the viewpoint of the law, the difference is that the shop, as a private business that sells goods to the general public, is considered a place of "public accommodation." The church is considered a "distinctly private" organization and a "bone fide religious institution." The laws differ in the two cases -- the former must obey the anti-discrimination laws and the latter does not. It has to do with the balance between rights of religious expression versus the civil rights of minorities that have suffered discrimination.
John Bartlett
12:27 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
If you can discriminate against one group then you can discriminate against any group. In the USA, everyone is equal and if your "religion" precludes you from doing business with certain Americans then you shouldn't be in business at all.
Dale Richner
12:44 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
Amen, brother.
Dale Richner
12:31 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
How does it violate her religious liberty to bake a cake? She operates a business, and it's not illegal to be gay, so she must comply with standard commerce laws. I am sick of people claiming they won't serve blacks at their lunch counter or won't take photos of gay people at a wedding. It's a cowardly, bigoted load of BS.
Personally, I don't much care for conservative Christians or for selfish people, but if I ran a business I would treat them exactly the same as every other paying customer. What part of that extraordinarily simple concept do people not get?
Maria L. Gaycheck
12:40 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
She will make cakes for heterosexual couples even though either couple could be a divorcee, adulterer, closeted homosexual, works on the Sabbath, wears leather gloves, wears a cotton blend shirt, Jewish, Muslim or Atheist.
She is as much as a Christian as a member of the KKK is Christian -- in name only.
Terri Gordy
2:09 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
This is discrimination, pure and simple. Makes me wonder who else she'll refuse to serve.
Charles Davis
3:55 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
I struggle with both sides of this issue. On one hand I would not have a problem at all in serving this couple. On the other hand, where do we draw the line with forcing individual people to do things they personally feel violate their own consciences.
Example, lets say this cake baker was a busines sowned by black people. Now lets say that a KKK group wanted the business to cater or bake cakes for a KKK ralley in town. If the black business person refused to do so, would we be having this discussion?
Disclaimer: For goodness sakes I am not comparing gays to KKK members. I am only making a point that where do we find it acceptable for a private person to say NO I do not want to serve you.
David Johnson
4:03 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
If a business owned by Jews were to be asked to cater a Skin Head / Nazi convention, and refused, would we be having this discussion?
If a group of gays owned a convention hall, and and the a-hole pastor who pickets military funerals and carries around signs saying "God hates Faggots" wanted to rent the convention hall owned by gays, should they be ridiculed for saying NO?
This gay couple should be glad to know the person they were going to give money to hates gays. And therefore they can take their check books to a different baker.
David Johnson
4:07 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
What about the business called "Curves" ? It is a WOMAN ONLY fitness facility in strip malls that discriminates against men. Why have I never heard any outrage at them?
OldDaveNJ
5:13 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
Anti-discrimination laws, since their inception almost 50 years ago, have explicitly identified and protected specific classes of people that have suffered from wide-spread, socially destructive discrimination. Hate groups like the ones you cite are not among the protected classes so covered. As for Curves, they provide services that are specifically developed for women. Anti-discrimination laws don't require that they develop fitness routines for men ... that is not what their business is about. (Nor do such laws require that kosher establishments offer non-kosher food, for the same reason.) Aside from the trivial difference in the nature of the figurines on top, there is typically nothing inherently different between a wedding cake for a straight couple and a wedding cake for a same-gender couple. The baker makes wedding cakes and there is no reason for not selling to a same-gender couple based on the nature of her business ... it is strictly a matter of discrimination.
Rene Micheo
9:34 pm on Wednesday, November 23, 2011
When one of the bakers descendants comes out gay and he/she inherits the business, things and minds will change
Deb
7:39 pm on Sunday, December 4, 2011
The cake maker wasn't looking for controversy, but the two hatefilled lesbians were.
CFBusinessOwner
2:34 pm on Tuesday, February 14, 2012
Just curious: Does this same baker decline work from folks who are remarrying after a divorce? Or how about if they have a felony record? Or if they've ever taken the Lord's name in vain? I'm pretty sure all of the above are disapproved in the bible.
As a private business owner she technically has the right to decline working for someone but if she does so on behalf of Christian beliefs then how does she decide which sin to focus on? She must spend a lot of time trying to figure out who she can work with...